Citizens Against Hate

…seeking a kinder and gentler world


Posted by nicolen on March 2, 2008


Judge orders homeschoolers into government education
Court: Family’s religious beliefs ‘no evidence’ of 1st Amendment violation

Posted: February 29, 2008
3:24 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

A California court has ruled that several children in one homeschool family must be enrolled in a public school or “legally qualified” private school, and must attend, sending ripples of shock into the nation’s homeschooling advocates as the family reviews its options for appeal.The ruling came in a case brought against Phillip and Mary Long over the education being provided to two of their eight children. They are considering an appeal to the state Supreme Court, because they have homeschooled all of their children, the oldest now 29, because of various anti-Christian influences in California’s public schools.

The decision from the 2nd Appellate Court in Los Angeles granted a special petition brought by lawyers appointed to represent the two youngest children after the family’s homeschooling was brought to the attention of child advocates.

“We find no reason to strike down the Legislature’s evaluation of what constitutes an adequate education scheme sufficient to promote the ‘general diffusion of knowledge and intelligence,'” the court said in the case. “We agree … ‘the educational program of the State of California was designed to promote the general welfare of all the people and was not designed to accommodate the personal ideas of any individual in the field of education.'”

The words echo the ideas of officials from Germany, where homeschooling has been outlawed since 1938 under a law adopted when Adolf Hitler decided he wanted the state, and no one else, to control the minds of the nation’s youth.

Wolfgang Drautz, consul general for the Federal Republic of Germany, has said “school teaches not only knowledge but also social conduct, encourages dialogue among people of different beliefs and cultures, and helps students to become responsible citizens.”

Specifically, the appeals court said, the trial court had found that “keeping the children at home deprived them of situations where (1) they could interact with people outside the family, (2) there are people who could provide help if something is amiss in the children’s lives, and (3) they could develop emotionally in a broader world than the parents’ ‘cloistered’ setting.”

The appeals ruling said California law requires “persons between the ages of six and 18” to be in school, “the public full-time day school,” with exemptions being allowed for those in a “private full-time day school” or those “instructed by a tutor who holds a valid state teaching credential for the grade being taught.”

The judges ruled in the case involving the Longs the family failed to demonstrate “that mother has a teaching credential such that the children can be said to be receiving an education from a credentialed tutor,” and that their involvement and supervision by Sunland Christian School’s independent study programs was of no value.

Nor did the family’s religious beliefs matter to the court.

Their “sincerely held religious beliefs” are “not the quality of evidence that permits us to say that application of California’s compulsory public school education law to them violates their First Amendment rights.”

“Such sparse representations are too easily asserted by any parent who wishes to homeschool his or her child,” the court concluded.

The father, Phillip Long, said the family is working on ways to appeal to the state Supreme Court, because he won’t allow the pro-homosexual, pro-bisexual, pro-transgender agenda of California’s public schools, on which WND previously has reported, to indoctrinate his children.

“We just don’t want them teaching our children,” he told WND. “They teach things that are totally contrary to what we believe. They put questions in our children’s minds we don’t feel they’re ready for.

“When they are much more mature, they can deal with these issues, alternative lifestyles, and such, or whether they came from primordial slop. At the present time it’s my job to teach them the correct way of thinking,” he said.

“We’re going to appeal. We have to. I don’t want to put my children in a public school system that teaches ideologies I don’t believe in,” he said.

A spokesman for the Home School Legal Defense Association, one of the world’s premiere homeschooling advocacy organizations, said the group’s experts were analyzing the impact of the decision.

“It’s a very unfortunate decision,” he said.

Randy Thomasson, of Campaign for Children and Families, said under California law parents have the legal right to create a private school in their home and enroll their own children.

“Children belong to the parents, not to the state,” he said. But he acknowledged that there’s a great deal of misinformation about the status of homeschooling in California.

“For years the government school establishment has been lying to parents about the law. Just this week, a Los Angeles Unified school district employee lied to a mother who wanted to homeschool, telling her you must have a license, you must be credentialed and you must follow all the state curriculum. That’s three lies in one sentence.”

“Now we have judges going crazy and actively separating children from their parents.”

A legal outline for parents’ homeschool rights in California, published by Family Protection Ministries, confirmed Thomasson’s description.

The state’s legal options for home educators include establishing a private school in their home by filing a private school affidavit with state regulators or enrolling in private school satellite instruction programs or independent study programs, it said.

The Long family had been involved in such a program with Sunland Christian School, but the appeals court took the extraordinary step of banning the family from being involved in that organization any longer, since it was “willing to participate in the deprivation of the children’s right to a legal education.”

A number of groups already have assembled in California under the Rescue Your Child slogan to encourage parents to withdraw their children from the state’s public school system.

It’s because the California Legislature and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger worked together to establish Senate Bill 777 and Assembly Bill 394 as law, plans that institutionalize the promotion of homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism and other alternative lifestyle choices.

“First, [California] law allowed public schools to voluntarily promote homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality. Then, the law required public schools to accept homosexual, bisexual and transsexual teachers as role models for impressionable children. Now, the law has been changed to effectively require the positive portrayal of homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality to 6 million children in California government-controlled schools,” said Thomasson.

Even insiders joined in the call for an abandonment of California’s public districts. Veteran public school teacher Nadine Williams of Torrance said the sexual indoctrination laws have motivated her to keep her grandchildren out of the very public schools she used to support.

The Discover Christian Schools website reports getting thousands of hits daily from parents and others seeking information about alternatives to California’s public schools.

WND reported leaders of the campaign called California Exodus say they hope to encourage parents of 600,000 children to withdraw them from the public districts this year.

The new law itself technically bans in any school texts, events, class or activities any discriminatory bias against those who have chosen alternative sexual lifestyles, said Meredith Turney, legislative liaison for Capitol Resource Institute.

There are no similar protections for students with traditional or conservative lifestyles and beliefs, however. Offenders will face the wrath of the state Department of Education, up to and including lawsuits.

“SB 777 will result in reverse discrimination against students with religious and traditional family values. These students have lost their voice as the direct result of Gov. Schwarzenegger’s unbelievable decision. The terms ‘mom and dad’ or ‘husband and wife’ could promote discrimination against homosexuals if a same-sex couple is not also featured,” she said.

Karen England, chief of CRI, told WND that the law is not a list of banned words, including “mom” and “dad.” But she said the requirement is that the law bans discriminatory bias and the effect will be to ban such terminology.

“Having ‘mom’ and ‘dad’ promotes a discriminatory bias. You have to either get rid of ‘mom’ and ‘dad’ or include everything when talking about [parental issues],” she said. “They [promoters of sexual alternative lifestyles] do consider that discriminatory.”

The California plan still is facing a court challenge on its constitutionality and a possible vote of the people of California if an initiative effort succeeds.



  1. From: Terry Neven
    Sunland Christian School

    In reference to the article “Judge Orders Homeschoolers…” we will keep the homeschool public current with our strategy and updates on how we are handling this case through our web site

  2. Jennifer said

    “Children belong to the parents, not to the state.” Children do not “belong” to anyone. They have a right not to be indoctrinated with their parents’ irrational aversion to lifestyles different from their own. At least if they go to school they have a chance to be given all the information.

    “The terms ‘mom and dad’ or ‘husband and wife’ could promote discrimination against homosexuals if a same-sex couple is not also featured,” she said.”

    I highly doubt you will find many same-sex couples who find references to ‘mom and dad’ offensive or discriminatory. What is offensive and discriminatory is teaching children that a homosexual lifestyle is unacceptable.

    Unless someone comes up with a better reason to deny homosexual, bisexual and transgender people their rights than ‘my religion says so,’ why shouldn’t children be taught to be accepting of what doesn’t do them any harm? I know parents who home-school do so in the best interests of their children, but I don’t think they should have absolute control over what their children are taught.

  3. Greg said

    Jennifer, children do belong to their parents and they also have a right not to be indoctrinated by the government. You are young and naive. Save your own indoctrinated opinions for when you have a little more life experience.

  4. Greg said

    Jennifer, your statment “I highly doubt you will find many same-sex couples who find references to ‘mom and dad’ offensive or discriminatory” is wrong too. Does your superior, young mind not remember that references to Moms and Dads are not allowed in California schools anymore?

  5. nicolen said

    Hold up just a second here. I have very strong feelings about this and admit that I am torn between the rights of the parents and the rights of the child.

    I understand wanting to raise your children within your own belief system and wanting to instill your own values. However, when those values and that belief system collide with the real world do you not run the risk of making those children socially inept at best and socially crippled at worse?

    Learning about others and differing lifestyles should not be perceived as a threat, but as a preparation for living in an ever-changing and diverse society. It doesn’t matter to me if the child learns this at home or at school as long as he/she learns it and gains the skills necessary for their future.

    I agree with Jennifer to a degree – and I am neither young nor naive. Children do not “belong” to anyone. They are only yours for a little while. And while you have them, it is your job, as a parent, to nurture them and prepare them for life in the real world.

    After working with children for decades I can tell you that the most well adjusted, mentally and emotionally equipped children come from backgrounds where their parents allowed them to think, to as questions without fear, and to formulate opinions of their own.

    Information, if presented appropriately, does not equal indoctrination. That is a word that always surfaces in these discussions and is often used erroneously. Children deserve to be provided with the tools that allow them to see the whole picture. They deserve to be allowed to make informed decisions.

    We live in a world that is beautiful. Diversity has given us a special ingredient that is not present in many other societies. Each child born into this world is a unique gift to all of us. They present themselves to us, trusting and wide-eyed and we have the daunting task of helping them be ready for the world at large. When we have done that – we can breathe.

  6. The Friar said

    So I figure I’ll offer my 2 cents worth on this article.

    While I am shocked at this ruling I’m not really surprised to find the ruling coming from California. My suggestion to parents should this type of ruling stand would be to move. There are 49 other states in the Union, not all are whacked as this.

    I have a daughter, she does belong to me as she is the fruit of the relationship between her mother and I. She is fortunate to have 2 loving parents that will raise her to be the best person she can be.

    In this argument of who the children belong to, say a child kills your cat or vandalizes your yard . . . do you seek damages from the child or from the parents? Just curious.

    As far as growing up socially inept; most, if not all, homeschooling programs and indeed most people who home school do so with a group. Said group may be a church or a private umbrella organization. It is with this group that social skills are built.

    As for my wife and I, we will be home schooling our daughter. She will be raised to love the person, and hate the sin. This is how her mother and I interact with other individuals and it is the way she will act. I have had several friends that stated they were homosexuals, even have family; I do not agree with their sin just as much as I do not agree with my own sin. But if I were not to love and accept that person . . . THAT would be a real fault.

    This is another example of a government that has over stepped it’s bounds. The article states that this is not the first child they have raised, why not look at the 29 year old and see how they are doing as to whether or not this case should even be brought to court.

    I am currently glad that I live in Tennessee . . . but as it often goes what is in California today will be here tomorrow.

    One last thing . . . tell me no one is taking “Adolf Hitler did this in 1938” as a positive comment . . .

  7. Jennifer said

    Greg, I fail to see what my age has to do with my argument (and I’m curious as to how you know how old I am!). I’m quite prepared to change my mind, if you can show me where I went wrong. I agree with you that children should not be indoctrinated by the government, or by anyone for that matter. In hindsight, indoctrination was a bad choice of word – I’m sure there are many parents who teach their own beliefs without this being indoctrination. However, it seems that parents who pull their children from public school because they don’t want them exposed to certain ideas would be getting pretty close. I think Nicolen is quite right:

    “Information, if presented appropriately, does not equal indoctrination. That is a word that always surfaces in these discussions and is often used erroneously. Children deserve to be provided with the tools that allow them to see the whole picture. They deserve to be allowed to make informed decisions.”

    This is more the point I was trying to make.

    Regarding who children belong to, I agree that parents are in many ways responsible for their children, but I still don’t think this means the children belong to them in the sense of property or ownership.

    “Does your superior, young mind not remember that references to Moms and Dads are not allowed in California schools anymore?”

    I didn’t say that they were. My understanding, based on the article here, was that the new law bans bias against GLBT people in general, not specific words. Anyway, my point was simply speculation that few people would demand that the words ‘mom’ and ‘dad’ be banned and that what people do object to is when children are taught that ‘mom and dad’ is the only/best parenting combination. I could be wrong.

  8. nicolen said

    Hi Friar and thanks for your thoughts on this matter. As to the killing of my cat – well, that is a crime and I would imagine that the child who did it would face the consequences. Vandalism is also a crime, however, I would more than likely insist that the culprit (the child) clean it up. I’m big on children being held accountable for their own actions.

    Your daughter is, indeed, fortunate to have both parents who are loving and protective. Not all children have that advantage. My comment about children not belonging to anyone was meant to convey the fact that no one “owns” people.

    As to social skills – I understand that social skills can be built within that group. However, the child is still being raised in a contrived and somewhat cloistered environment. A sheltered child who has been raised in an environment such as this is bound to have difficulty in dealing with a real world environment and real world challenges.

    You made the following statement…

    “As for my wife and I, we will be home schooling our daughter. She will be raised to love the person, and hate the sin. This is how her mother and I interact with other individuals and it is the way she will act.”

    First, you should be applauded for the “love the person and hate the sin” outlook. However, I’m curious about that last sentence. How do you KNOW this is how she will act. Children have a funny way of growing up and out-growing the dogma of the parents.

    Second, how is this not indoctrination? For all of the protestations of homeschoolers against indoctrination by the government – I have yet to find a group that doesn’t do the same thing.

    Third, there are many people in this world who would argue that it is not up to us to judge others as sinners. Homosexuality is not a “choice” and neither is being transgendered.

    I fervently hope that you and your group are providing your children with pertinent and factual information free of bias and prejudice. While the court ruling has been a shock to the homeschooling community, it has opened some new areas for discussion.

    As to the “banning of the terms ‘mom and dad,’ I don’t know of anyone who would be offended by that.

    However, given the large number of GLBT children in our public schools, I see nothing wrong with training teachers and administrators to be more aware and more unbiased in their approach and presentation with students. The very same type of training has been done to accomodate various ethnic backgrounds.

    A multicultural society presents so many unprecedented challenges. That is why, I believe, it is so important to raise our children to make informed decisions and to be ready to meet those challenges. By the time of young adulthood, they should be able to synthesize and analyze while forming their own opinions and defining their own set of values. Our challenge is to make them ready to fly.

  9. Mary said

    Well, it’s so nice to see all the concern for my children who are home schooled. I think it’s rather sad to say that before they were born I could have murdered them and it would just be a choice. Not one of you zealots would have had a bad word to say about me, or would have stood up for my children. Just let me choose to educate them and now I am a great horrid sinner. Let me make a life style choice and you are standing before me wagging your finger and making judgments about what kind of person I am. You believe I want to teach my children intolerance and want to shut my children off from the truth. May I ask what is truth? Must I agree with you and your ideology? Is your truth the only truth? You would have the police knock down private doors to see if any education is going on. What goes on in private homes is not the business of the police.
    How often have you told society to keep out of private bedrooms and leave people alone. Look at how tolerant you are? When you don’t agree you will use what ever method suits you. I ask you to leave my life style choices alone and enjoy the fruits of public education. Just remember without my children in your children’s classrooms the class size will shrink. The teachers will do a better job, and your child will get a better education.

  10. Debie said

    According to a textbook I have on The Constitution
    under the doctrine of parens patriae the state does not have the right to intevene with what a family does unless one or more of the fallowing is present:

    1. There is evidence of extended and extreme neglect of children
    2. There is evidence of criminal abuse.
    3. The family residence is being used for criminal
    “Social workers and state offiials may not agree with the religious training, choice of schools , philosophy of childrearing or other details in the life of the family but
    unless one or the above is present the state does not have the right to intervene.”
    Making of America page 179

  11. Bob said

    I’m moving to Greenland.

  12. Leslie said

    As I recall, Karl Marx endorsed “free education for all children in public schools” as part of his Communist Manifesto, or as George Orwell proclaimed in Animal Farm – if you “feed the puppies,” eventually they will turn on their parents.

  13. nicolen said

    Mary, who are the “zealots” you are referring to? I haven’t seen any of that in this discussion – just people voicing opinions and giving some very good thought to the issue at hand.

    I understand that this is a heated issue which people are very passionate about, however, I do take exception to the reference to abortion. I have not seen anyone say such a thing.

  14. Information, if presented appropriately, does not equal indoctrination

    Yes, true–but not going to happen in our section of the Universe. As Daniel Dennett reminds us, there is no such creature as “objective” values or science, there is merely information that comes pre-loaded with its own baggage. Most of this “information” generally comes with a chip on the shoulder about gender-bender issues, the United States needs radical socialism, men are all pigs, heather needs two mommies and dad can go to hell or be present only in the form of a turkey baster device to be a sperm donor. On and on it goes. As you can see from the Spitzer case, this nation is not exactly suffering from too much concern for moral suasion starting in the home or schools.

    Back on planet earth, the reality of what government schooling is not doing for us educationally but IS doing to us regarding our inability to think things all the way through to conclusion has been manifest for decades. Contrary to popular myth, the Founders were NOT “big” on public schooling. This was a notion created in the industrial age of the 19th century to have the masses have, in the words of Horace Mann, a “common denominator” of “social truth” as he and others saw it and to constantly pay obeisence to the power and majesty of government. It was not for nothing that people like Margaret Sanger and Paul Blanchard all the way down to your local NEA chapters hated and always hated a homeschooled environment. They don’t get control or money out of such arrangements. No jobs creation programs for teachers, which is what the recent ruling was partly about also. Sanger and Blanchard for two at least saw and celebrated the roles of public schools for destroying traditional values and replacing what Sanger called “the rotting corpse of Christianity” with something akin to today’s obsesion with PC whining.

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission –Ayn Rand

    The State of Cally is wrong on several fronts. first, they extended a particular case and allegation (which is common against homeschoolers) and YET the most abusive place to be is in the public schools, as far as safety and health and learning issues. The teachers’ unions might be pleased with the ruling but have little room to speak about quality and safety. Second, this particularistic ruling is now extended to somehow included this idiotic “certification” issue, which no study to date has ever credibly demonstrated is necessary for public school teachers, much less having this foisted on parents in a home setting.
    Thirs, this is legislation by the bench, which should be illegal. If the law is to be recast let the cowardly legislators trying to push some leftist agenda pull that stunt . Make the cretins beat you at the plate. Don’t let them take the walk using the courts to do what they themselves will not do.

    It is commonly known that homeschooling is a better and safer environment for most children, even if difficult to organize. So naturally it should not be experiencing the kinds of absurd statist worshipping roadblocks that have not even been shown to confer eductional advantage.

    As far as socialization–that is pure myth. Perhaps some shakers from the Brave New World order of things think honestly that this obsession with horizontal structure learning among peers is good. I assure you it is not. Kids will learn the full monty of just how repulsive and difficult life can be soon enough without harrassment and bullying at school and the kinds of socialization that are not all that nice to try and duplicate. Brain studies done by Scientific American (which I plan to write about soon but not today) have demonstrated that small groupings with the peers being older children rather than kids of the same age are far more conducive to natural learning curves for young people anyhow.

    But back to the recent unplesantry: As I wrote to a friend on this recently:

    “Naturally, the state teachers’ union is pleased with the prospects. Their reasoning is probably not, as they claim, about education quality or child safety. The NEA and the other local teachers’ unions gave up any room to talk on that set of issues long ago anyhow. What is actually going on here is two-fold: First, this is a jobs creation program for teachers. It REALLY is that simple. People can talk about this being a travesty of justice and lawmaking from the bench. Its that too. But California has taken the lead in making examples out of this kind of legislation. Actually, this is not legislation. That is supposed to be done by, well, LEGISLATURE. Nothing new here for this state among many others to legislate from benches. That’s a concern, yes, but really just a side effect–a vector–or method of transmission for the real disease here.

    The court in this case somehow decided that “certification” was THE issue even though the case came before the court regarding allegations of child abuse for a non-registered homeschool, which in California must actually be labelled a “private school.” The next issue is really one of socialization and agenda politics from the Left. The Court did not say this, no. And would not. But this ruling did not come out of nowhere, like a bolt out of the blue. This has been building for a while. Activists against homeschooling no doubt figured there is more than one way to skin a cat. And in this case, since legislation to force homeschoolers to promote a particular ideology about family (say, gay and gender issues, as just one example) failed, or force what are primarily Christian parents to see things from a secular viewpoint on issues ranging from sex education to world politics and neo-Marxian economics failed, the activists needed a less direct, “back door route”. While not absolutely sure for this particular case, phony charges of child abuse against homeschoolers have been shown to be legion and unrelenting. And they are ever-so-easy to make. The creation of these “teaching credentials” requirements, which most parent don’t have, have little time to obtain, and no doubt will have to follow a politically correct format, are a new potential criminalization for most homeschooling parents in the State of California. Teacher certifications have never been proven by any relevant objective study to make any improvement in the education of children at any level. Why the sudden “fix”?

    But don’t tell that to the teachers’ unions of California or the NEA. They now have more laws to pass, more agenda to push, and more jobs to fill. “

  15. As to this bugaboo of “socialization” it is important to remember that is merely a notion–and not a legal or scientific one at that. And in point of fact several studies indicate no loss of leadership ability or interaction for homeschoolers than any other class of children. Unless one is trying to inculcate “street” savveyness or the like. Maybe that’s true, and its up to parents to decide if rolling condoms on cukes or lighting up Marlboro lights is what they need from their teen more than higher educational standards. The courts have recognized that parents, with some noted and unfortunate exceptions, are generally speaking the best models for children—not other children.
    I have researched dozens of studies in additional to court cases to see what has been said on this “socialization” and “real world” interface/interaction issue and “handling things” and see no scientifically credible evidence that my kids will be shy or tyrannical reagrding others’ feelings or lifestyles due to homeschooling. The world in point of fact will be looking to people with credentials–be that fair or unfair–for future enrollments for everything from better engineers to doctors to zoologists. I hope no one here suffers under the illusions that doctors don’t need the requisite training so much as they can just have some nifty manners and sure as heck get along with the crowd?


    See Also:

    U.S. Supreme Court
    Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925)

    “The fundamental theory of liberty upon which all governments of this Union rest excludes any general power of the State to standardize its children by forcing them to accept instruction from public teachers only.”. P. 535.

  16. NICOLEN SAID, in part:

    For all of the protestations of homeschoolers against indoctrination by the government – I have yet to find a group that doesn’t do the same thing.

    Yes, but home environments, while they surely CAN be undone, occur to people as being a freer and safer option than having forced taxpayer dough go to something inclucating ideas that many people find abhorrent.

    People can, and will, in the age of PCism, apply terms any way they like. Flail away at “indoctrination” in the home as well as society. OK. That’s fine.

    Whatever you call “indoctrination”, surely parents should not be forced into doing something they feel on a variety of fronts is antithetical to the better interests of their children. For the most part, the courts have agreed. California being its own domain of notions, it seems.

    Of course people don’t “own” their kids, any more than a bird “owns” her nestlings. I have a pet caiman myself who if she laid eggs she’d no doub bite the hell out of anyone who messed with them. Humans no less than most of other creatures protect their young. This is natural just the same as some people feel a kind of orientation to other feelings and beliefs as you just pointed out.

    As to kids being in “cloistered” or “shielded” environments, that is not always or even usually a negative. My kids will see the full reality of life soon enough. At their young ages they don’t need temptations and issues beyond their ability judgement to fully measure without help from parents. Which is why peer pressure is so powerful. It is value free and parental control free. I don’t let them do certain things any more than l let them crusie those horrid gore and blood sites set up and maintained by professional coroners to entertain Web goons with pictures of brains and guts on the highway.

    This too is “reality”–yes, horrid things happen. But without proper context those realities will have to wait. that’s just an example, I know, and an extreme one, yet. But I think most parents would see the same for other issues.

  17. Maria said

    Wow, have to say when you start comparing a legislation as controversial as a homeschooling ban with Nazi Germany you lose a lot of objectivity in your readers’ eyes.

    Does anyone know of an activist group for people committed to the rights of children who would like to see homeschooling outlawed?

  18. Kristina Johnson said

    You people are selfish arrogant babies, sorry for the attack… REASON, the brain has a gender which has been shown to be different than the body in a small group of the population, and these influences where you think your child will be harmed is actually teaching reality to them…Boys who have girls brains who socially adapt to female life become normal woman…The girls around them become best friends for life and protect these different girls from a lot of abuse…Sorry if it doesn’t fall in line with your 500 year old teaching…Facts are hard to accept…Send your girls to school and help them be better people…Those girls who you think are boys interacting with them don’t have the concept of the other boys…This is not open to an opinion, this is science, your religous beliefs are insane…

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